Podcast Transcript: How to create sustained data-driven, organic growth

Aug 20, 2020

1200 x 628_VyaPodcast_JimSOur Guest: Jim Stadler, Executive Vice President,
Chief Marketing & Communications Officer

Company: First Midwest Bank

Website: firstmidwest.com



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Episode Transcript

Allan:  Hey Martha, a quick question, what does the scoreboard at Wrigley Field have to do with bank marketing KPIs?

Martha:  Well, our guest today has some great tips on bank marketing KPIs and compares them to the scoreboard at Wrigley Field, but I prefer the scoreboard at Great American Ballpark myself.

Allan:   I have to say I kind of agree. We'll see how things go in the podcast.

Intro Music

Discussion Section 1

Allan:   Hello and welcome to Bank Marketing Today by Vya. I am Allan Greer and together with Martha France, we are interviewing Bank Marketing Leaders about current trends, new marketing technologies, branding and the overall state of the banking industry. We will be joined from time to time by additional co-hosts and experts.

Martha:  Our guest on today's episode is Jim Stadler. Jim is the Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing and Communications Officer at First Midwest Bank. And he shared some great tips on data driven organic growth, performance-based marketing, digital transformation and more. So, let's get to it. We hope this episode of Bank Marketing Today will help simplify your marketing tomorrow.

Intro Music

Martha:  Hello, I am Martha France and I am joined today by my co-host Allan Greer, and we are truly excited to be talking with Jim Stadler, the Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing and Communications Officer at First Midwest Bank. Welcome to the Bank Marketing Today podcast Jim.

Jim:  Martha and Alan, thanks. Looking forward to our discussion, should be fun.

Martha:  We're excited about it too, thanks. Jim can you start off by sharing a little bit about your background with our listeners. You have a really unique mix of agency and client-side experience along with experience in the franchise industry with McDonald's. How has your background from other industries influenced the marketing approaches that you're taking at First Midwest?

Jim:  Yeah, that's a great question and it's funny, I'm probably an anomaly within the banking industry based on my background from a Chief Marketing Officer’s perspective. I started my career on the client side just briefly. I was with Kimberly-Clark Corporation for a number of years and then migrated to McDonald's where I spent the bulk of my time. I actually spent time in what we call field marketing for McDonald's, worked at Oak Brook in a number of different disciplines. For some reason I decided to migrate to the agency business, it was an interesting business because obviously I was exposed to it at McDonald's. I then went over to DDB Worldwide, which is a global agency and spent time on a number of different accounts. I actually started their B2B practice and then decided if I was going to stay in the agency business that I should go to a small independent and gain some ownership. Which I did and I became a partner in Schafer Condon Carter, a small 100-person shop, and we had a great run.

First Midwest Bank was one of our clients, and at one point they decided they were going to create a new role at the bank, Chief Marketing Officer and have it report to the President and be part of the Executive Management Committee. I thought that was an interesting opportunity to move my career forward and take on another challenge. I landed here, and I've been here almost three years. The interesting thing about the question is that when I was talking to the bank, I said, “You know, I think you have enough bankers, what you need are marketing people.” So you asked the question about the experiences that I had outside the banking world, I think any experience you get in a particular discipline whether it's marketing or corporate communications apply - I think across the board and whatever industry that you're working in. And I think it actually provides a benefit because you don't come in with this legacy mentality that these things have to happen because I'm in the banking world. It's actually the opposite and so I think that benefits the bank.

Allan:  How has that affected your marketing approach at First Midwest?

Jim:  It's interesting. What I've learned over the period of time in a lot of different industries, the only thing that matters in my mind is organic growth and I always talk to my people that marketing is supposed to create demand for products and services, that's its number one goal. All of the ancillary things, brand, how you use your data, the customer, everything around that, but you know, organic growth is at the heart and soul of what a marketing function should be, so, I always focus on that. I think some of the things that we did at McDonald's was all about transactions and average check, which equals sales. How many transactions you have, what's the average check, but it was very specific to growth and how did you drive that growth. I think you can take those learnings and you can extend them into any industry. I think that's an important tenet that even though I know it sounds so simple, it gets lost sometimes that the focus should be on that particular area and then everything else, I think you can build around that.

Allan:  For sure. Great info, I certainly appreciate it. To kind of change gears a little bit, I want to congratulate you on the recently completed merger with Park Bank. Pretty exciting! And, you know, obviously, it's a huge time of transitions in the industry as a whole. I wonder if you can tell us a little bit about your experience with acquisitions.

Jim:  Sure. So again, I've been here three years, and I would tell you that on the bank front that is one of our core strategies outside of a couple of other key strategies. M&A is going to be an important part of what we do moving forward. It's obviously taken a little bit of a pause due to the current environment, but I think you'll see activity start to spike again as we move into 2021 and 2022 and I'm not talking First Midwest specific, I'm talking the industry in general, I think you'll see some more consolidation. If you look at the world, most countries had three to four banks, that's just how they set up their structure. We had a bank at every street corner. It's just how we grew up in this country, and I think, obviously, there's some efficiencies back when that was important, but there's inefficiencies as we've evolved. I think you're going to continue to see consolidation in the industry and I think we'll be part of that and it's an important part of our plans. We'll be opportunistic as we move forward with M&A activity. I would say we, not me, but the company is really good at integration once we do an M&A activity. And integration is a tough part because there's a lot of moving pieces, but we've gotten really good at it over the years. You'll see more of it, and it's going to be interesting how the landscape changes over the next three to five years.

Allan:  I appreciate you being modest about it, but I think marketing has got to have a huge role in acquisitions and communicating it out and making it an easy transition for customers.

Jim:  Yeah, and I would say that Park, if you look at our acquisition strategy, there's two types. One is existing market growth where we want to add scale to an existing market. And then one is actually adding geographic scale. A couple of key things that you look at as you build out your M&A strategy and certainly marketing as part of the M&A strategy, we had to be careful as to how we represented the brand and introduce the brand once the integration was done.

Allan:  Two minutes ago you mentioned organic growth, and that's obviously using internal resources to drive that growth. How do you do that for First Midwest?

Jim:  It’s pretty simple. I like to simplify things, but we really focus on three core areas for growth and then we build plans out from there. As you guys know, we have four core businesses. We have a consumer business, we have a retail small banking business, we have a commercial business, and then we have a wealth business. So obviously, all of those businesses are a little different. You have to approach organic growth a little differently with each business, but fundamentally, in our business you're looking at prospecting or acquisition. That’s net new clients, whether it's product or service. You're looking at efficient and well thought out onboarding of new clients, and I'll get to that in a second. Then you're looking at cross sell product penetration. All of those are different and unique, but they all work together.

So, depending on the business we’ll focus different efforts on the prospecting front and then we are working diligently right now on evolving our onboarding for all of our lines of business because it's important to onboard customers correctly. That's actually the time that you have the most opportunity to gain share of wallet or product penetration during an onboarding process because it's top of mind. It's most relevant to them as they're looking at what their needs are when becoming a new customer of the bank and then obviously, cross sell is important with data and analytics and we'll get into that in a while. But data analytics drives a lot of what we do on the cross-sell area, because we're lucky enough as one of the companies out there that has first party data. And that's an important asset to have as you move the business forward because you understand the behaviors of your customers so you can be relevant to them in terms of offering them things that they believe they need or want. So those are kind of the core tenants that we build our marketing plans around, prospecting, onboarding and then cross selling.

Martha:  So when you're doing that prospecting to support that organic growth, how do you connect with the right prospects across even those four lines of business that you talked about? How do you identify who the right prospect is and then figure out how to connect with them?

Jim:  Why don't I give you an example? That might be the best way to do it. Commercial banking can sometimes be difficult to find the right prospects, but we have a very defined definition of what our verticals are in commercial banking, whether it's middle market, business banking, or specialty. There's a number of different areas for a commercial bank. So, we have a defined definition, which means types of customers we want to go after, industry verticals, sales, profile, et cetera. We start there. Obviously, there's a number of different tools out there. Every bank uses a CRM system. We happen to use Salesforce. We have a number of different buckets. Take, for example, our middle market business. All of our RMs, we call them relationship managers, will have a handful of prospects that they have in their CRM system, and we will go out and find third party data that we can overlay with our first party data to build a prospect list. 

We'll do specific events with specific topics. We'll capture prospects that come to those events to learn. So, you have a number of different ways you can establish very relevant targeted lists for prospects and specific industries. And we'll take those and then we'll build prospecting customer journeys, which basically is kind of a step process as to how you reach out to these customers and communicate to them. What type of content are you serving up with them? When does an RM call them? When do we send out an email? When do we invite them to an event? So, it's a very well thought out customer journey to nurture them along to hopefully bring them on as a client. That's just an example of how we would do it in commercial. Retail small business would be similar, and then consumer is about life stage and then behavior, because you obviously can understand consumer’s behaviors by the actions they take, whether when they're on our website they can get a particular item, and we understand that perhaps that they're looking at a mortgage.

We can follow up with them and then send them something or there's other behavioral tools out there that we can leverage, whether it's third party data, or anything that they're doing in the social media space. There's a lot of ways we can understand consumers and then, you know, the number one goal is we want to provide relevance to them. We don't want to send someone something they're not looking for. We want to send them something that is relevant to them at that moment in time and that's how you drive organic growth and get new clients. And then I'd say the final thing is that everybody does a mass acquisition strategy, which is easy if you're doing something like new checking. That's something you could advertise on television and you could put it in programmatic media plan. There are opportunities where you can do mass acquisition in a particular market.

Martha:  Yes, you have that specific and then you’ve got that air cover.

Jim:  You bet, and it just varies by line of business and it varies in terms of product and service, and so that's the fun part about banking, it is being able to be creative and innovative in each approach that you might take. And also, let's be honest too, you learn a lot from doing this. You gain learnings by response rates and how people react to certain offers, copy, et cetera, whatever channel that you utilize, and then you'll learn and you'll optimize and then you'll get better results next time you keep doing that. That's kind of the key to what I would call modern marketing as well as personalization and being as personal as you can be. It's almost like a one on one conversation with a customer.

Allan:  Jim, when we spoke previously, you mentioned you're a big proponent of driving performance. I’m just curious as to how that relates to organic growth and how you measure the performance of your organic growth.

Jim:  Performance- based marketing is kind of core to our culture and something that we wanted to create so that when we come in every day, we're looking at data and the results of the previous day so that it drives our decision making as we move forward. Some examples, and one of the things that the company is doing a really nice job of in all areas and in marketing in particular, is that we've really focused. We have a set of core KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) that we look at on a daily and then monthly basis, and we have them for each of my key areas: consumer marketing, retail, small business, marketing, commercial, and then our digital assets. It's been really nice to see our department rally around them and understand how they impact day to day decisioning on what we're going to do strategically to drive organic growth.

So, that's really how we hold people accountable, both myself and my entire team accountable. Examples of things that we measure and look at tied or aligned to the strategic objectives of my partners that lead commercial, retail, small business, consumer, et cetera. Just to give an example on the consumer side, we focus on reducing new to bank customer attrition, a very important metric that we focus on, and there's a lot of strategic things we can do around that metric, but that metric is the output of what we do strategically. We're going to look at improving new to bank checking engagement. We look at increasing active checking. We look at growing core deposits. And those are just some examples.

Another key thing we're looking at during COVID that is really driven on the consumer side is how do we drive more digital adoption? What does digital adoption mean? Well, it means, direct deposit, online banking, mobile banking, e-statements, debit. Those are all very tangible, we call them engagement services, that keep clients sticky, but also provide them with a better customer experience and helps us manage attrition, which is very important. Those are just some consumer data points that we look for, but those are what hold us accountable to on organic growth and how we drive organic growth because those lead to better performance and organic growth. Those are consumer examples. I can go down a list in any one of our lines of business, but the idea is to align with your line of business, have the correct KPIs that strategically are going to deliver on that organic growth.

Make sure that you visit with them every day in terms of the data and the outputs of those KPIs. And then we have an hour-long conversation every month on them and how we adjust them and how we ideate around them to help drive even better performance. It's a fun process actually because everybody always asks, “How do you win? How do you succeed?” And KPIs are really our scoreboard at Wrigley Field. It's how we look at wins and losses and that's important because it's fun to see progress.

Martha:  Jim, earlier you mentioned the importance of being relevant and I would assume that relevance really is one of those keys to winning, to driving those KPIs. And looking at your website and some of the promotions you've done, I really like how your marketing approach seems to be about deliberately providing value to your audience like in your we have ideas, resource center, and the promotion you did with ESPN 1000, the ad campaign giveaway. So how do you instill that approach in your team?

Jim:  So I think you have got to start with an insight or a strategic insight as to why we're doing something and I would tell you that our strategic insight in developing the “we have ideas” campaign, which is about two years old now and we continue to evolve. It was driven by some research that we did with a partner, and what it told us was in most cases, bank products and services are somewhat of a commodity. It's money, right, and most people have similar products and services. So where do you differentiate? And I think there's two areas that the research told us for differentiation, and one is providing value, incremental value, in terms of thought leadership and knowledge and things of that nature so that you can differentiate. That could manifest itself in a bank having a particular expertise in a vertical that they can then create more value, because they understand the business. That's, you know, bringing more value to the conversation, and then understanding the client's business.

So those are the two areas that are kind of the two core tenets. We thought developing a thought leadership platform across our lines of business and obviously, they're communicated and defined differently within each line of business, but we thought that would be a powerful tool. And then use that platform to drive what I would call engagement with our clients and creating that relevant value. Examples I have here are leveraging events in a commercial world that's important whether it's, how steel tariffs impact you, or legacy planning to leave your business with your family. There's so many topics you can go into that provide thought leadership. Partnerships, you talked about ESPN. We also did a partnerships with WTMX, which is a big station here in Chicago. Women in business that we leveraged and that was a very, very big program for us, all through strategic partnerships because we wanted to help support and drive opportunities with both of those segments.

Women in business, which is one of the largest growing segments in small business, and small business because of what was going on with COVID for our ESPN promotion. Sponsorship, looking at sponsorships and how we can leverage that in terms of our content, and then building content in our content hub that we feed into our Salesforce CRM system and also our marketing cloud system. We can do campaigns to send relevant content to our customers or potential prospects that might nurture them to become a client. It’s a whole strategy around this notion of, we have ideas and relevant content. So that's been a really easy thing for our team to get their heads around and how do I create strategies to help drive that within our marketing organization against our customers and potential customers.

Martha:  Just a little bit ago, you talked about digital and how with the customer experience you are driving towards digital. When we talked previously, you talked about digital transformation that seemed like it was even bigger than that, like it even got into the operational. And digital transformation that's a phrase that gets a lot of use today, right? I'm curious what you mean by that, and how you can put that into real terms for our listeners.

Jim:  I call it creating a better digital marketing customer experience. So, some of our core tenants moving forward to help build that out are data science, you know, just understanding the data and how we can use that data to better drive organic growth. So that's one area. The second area is evolving our digital media so that we're more prescriptive and we're more targeted and we're able to do that in a more efficient manner across the board and that's our SEM strategy, programmatic, social and other forms of digital media. I think our shift is going to be -- and I think it's accelerated over the last six months based on the environment - we're going to probably shift some of our focus more to that area. The third is our website, we just built a new website and it's all about conversions. It's all built around conversions and search.

We're going to continue to optimize that so we can have better personalization with our customers that come to our site so that we can serve up relevant content when they come back. If they're on a certain page when they left the site, we should serve that up when they come back to the site - that's personalization. If they're at a certain point in the site, and they're looking at a certain product, we should follow up with them and say, “Hey, I saw you were looking at this product, here's some options that might interest you.” So again, personalization is important. Last two things in our area customer insights. We have to get better at customer insights because that's drives a lot of what we're going to be doing in digitizing our offerings and those are just constant feedback loops. You guys know when you're on websites, they always ask you for these little surveys, right. Or if you've done something they'll pop up?

That's all customer insight. People take that data and then they use it to create a better client experience. Finally, digital sales enablement, the tools out there then enable us in our four lines of business to drive sales more from a digital perspective. So those are some of the buckets that we're looking at evolving as we look at creating a better digital customer experience.


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Allan:   One of the things we're trying to achieve and accomplish through the podcast is to give midsize bank marketers more of a peer to peer forum. What are some of the marketing challenges you think are unique to midsize banks and what type of advice could you give them for solving those challenges?

Jim:  I am on a mid-sized bank panel with a number of CMOs across the country. It's a wonderful resource and I have to tell you, we’ve got a lot of smart bank CMOs out there, a lot smarter than myself. And so, I've learned a lot from their experiences and I'm hoping they've learned from mine as well. That’s a neat opportunity to just understand what regional banks out there are facing in terms of challenges. And I would tell you there's a couple of things that keep coming up that your listeners are going to agree with. One is resources, we're just not as big as Chase and Wells and banks of that size or even the Super Regionals. Resources have a lot of different definitions, right? There's people resources, there's technology resources. There's any number of different areas of resources.

I think midsize banks have to be much smarter as to how they allocate those resources. That could be my marketing budget, I probably don't have as large a marketing budget as most larger banks. But I also think that's a benefit because it makes you really think about where I deploy those resources and assets to get the greatest return on my investment. In some ways, if you have a lot you waste it. If you have a little, you're smart about how you use it. So, there are pros and cons. I wish I had more, but the reality is, I think what I have allows me to focus more. Technology investment is also difficult. As we talked about earlier with banks going through a digital transformation. There's a lot of competition out there. There's FinTech companies. You hear Google, Facebook and Amazon saying they're going to get into the banking business at some point in time. Good luck. They'll have to be regulated and that won't be fun, they won’t like that.

But there's a lot of competition out there and there's a lot of investment going on and so much like with resources, how do you -- how do you make the right decisions on the technologies that you're going to invest in to drive the business moving forward? We can't make many mistakes like the big banks can because of budget resources. So again, we have to be smarter about where we allocate those technology investments so that they pay off incrementally down the road and that's important. I would call mid-sized banks fast followers versus early adopters. That's just how we are, and I think that's a smart approach, but every midsize regional bank is probably facing that same thing and then you take it a step further, at least in my world, and that is speed to market. Speed to market it’s important. Sometimes I feel like you can't move fast enough to get something into market and probably a lot of that's driven by resource needs, decisions or just lack thereof.

I think speed is driven by the need to be very prescriptive about how you make a decision, the investment that's required to make the sign offs, all of that. Speed is probably difficult to achieve based on the environment that we're in in terms of making these decisions. I always wish I could move faster, but I also understand that with the investments that we make we have to be very prescriptive about the business value that they create. Are they something that is going to make an impact on the bank? Is it something we can grow with? There's a lot of decisions around what are the use cases, we have to make sure those are correct. I wish we can move faster, but those protocols in order to get something into the market, I understand are important. And you know, we're also highly regulated so we have to be smart about how we do things and that's good -- I like to move fast, maybe it's the background that I came from. It's just in my DNA, maybe I need to be a little more patient.

Allan:  Well, I think in this day and age in the banking industry that's probably not a bad thing, seems I think you are changing quickly.

Jim:  Right. And to your point, that's probably driving a lot of it too. You see changes happening so rapidly, you want to be right behind those changes and following those changes. And sometimes it just doesn't move that fast. It's just the reality of the world.

Martha:  Earlier you mentioned innovation and marketers often have to sell innovation internally first. So, does it go back to being prescriptive about the value when you're trying to sell that innovation to your colleagues on the executive team?

Jim:  It's a process. I mean, two good examples are evolving our customer relationship management system and where we invest and what's the business value of that system to each of the lines of business and does it make sense? So you go through the process, but if you know what the rigor of going through that process is there's actually immense benefit on the backend, because it lets you know the KPIs that you are going to be utilizing to drive that investment. You've already created your scorecard, if you will. And as you go through that rigor, like anything else, it creates an organizational commitment. Go or no go, and that rigor, I think, provides that commitment, which makes it easier then on the backend to implement. Even though the rigor can be tough at some point and time it is, I think, a necessary evil in order to move the process forward. I don't think if you have that, you're going to have some issues on the backend that were never thought out prior to the implementation.

Martha:  I think what you just said is so key that once something is implemented that you've got people's buy in and that they're going to use it. So, if you've gotten that buy in as part of the rigor of selling it internally, it's a lot smoother on execution.

Jim:  Right. And I would tell you, there's a lot of stories about companies out there where the internal processes are a lot tougher than the external process of selling something, and they build that for just that reason. If you're committed to it, and you can convince me through the rigor of a business analysis payout, et cetera, then you know it's going to run much smoother once you get it outside that box. I think companies that are run really well have that rigor.

Martha:  Especially for marketing I think, it's telling that your position was newly created and that there was this recognition that marketing was important, but I don't think that's true across all the companies in this industry or across all the banks.

Jim:  No, it isn't. Before this role was created at First Midwest, the role of marketing reported into a line of business. So, it had no exposure to our executive team and did not have a seat at the table, but they purposely did this. And I think that the management was smart to do this, whether it was me in this seat or someone else, this role can bring a lot of value across the organization. It's not uncommon in other industries, so I don't know why it wouldn't be coming here. That’s sometimes how industries grow up.

Allan:  For the record, that's how we feel about Martha here at Vya. It works out really well because it takes a lot of pressure off me, which is wonderful. It is a very similar situation to that. Jim, I don't know if it is a loaded question or not. Where do you see the banking industry going and also, where is it going for First Midwest?

Jim:  This is my perspective, not held by the bank.

Allan:  That's good. Go for it.

Jim:  First of all, I think it's actually a really exciting time to be in this industry. I really do. The acceleration of change, the increase in competition where some would say, “Oh, no, there's a lot more competition.” No, that makes you sharper, better, smarter. So, I just think there's a lot of interesting things going on in this industry. I would tell you, and please don't take this the wrong way, in kind of a backwards way COVID has helped move things forward faster and you'll you hear that in a lot of industries. And as much as we still don't like the uncertainty of what's going on in the marketplace, and it's done a lot of harm to a lot of people. It has also accelerated some things that probably wouldn't have gotten accelerated as fast. So, I think there's some really interesting things going on in the banking industry.

I'm excited for the next 10 years. I think, it's not going to be easy, but it's definitely going to be challenging and exciting and that's kind of what you want. It is going to challenge you. Again, I'll overuse this term, but you're going to see more digitization of transactions, but what do I mean by that? I think the consumers are already there, right? I mean, every consumer uses Amazon, they use Uber. They're already trained, where I think it's going to evolve more rapidly and I don't know what this is going to look like today, but the commercial banking industry will be impacted at some point. Not in a bad way, but in a more efficient way. You'll see that in wealth, you're already seeing it. I mean, Morgan Stanley bought E*TRADE.

You’re going to see a lot of interesting changes on the digital front that I think will benefit the customer self-service. I think self-service is going to become more and more important, and what does that do to branches and the whole footprint of a bank personalization and improved client experience? I think those are things that you're going to see over the next five years. I'd love to come back in five years and see if I'm right, but I am probably not.

Martha:  Oh, we'll have you back in five years, we'd love to have you! Well, Jim, with all of that going on in the industry, and then layer on top of that the fact that marketing is changing at a fast pace as well, what are your go-to resources to keep up with to learn and expand your knowledge?

Jim:  I mentioned earlier the peer group of mid-sized banks, that's a really good resource to just share ideas. And if you think about it, none of us are really competitive. I might have one or two on the call that are in the same market, but most of us are geographically dispersed, which is good. So, there is a lot of interesting knowledge sharing there that's a benefit. And I would tell you, even during the COVID situation, it was hugely beneficial because a lot of people were going through a lot of interesting decision making. I have a couple of associations that we use. ABA, BAI, I use Gartner. They've been hugely beneficial. Then I'll read a lot. I know Warren Buffett reads four hours a day in his office to keep up on things. We're also part of the Association of National Advertisers and a part of their CMO Council. It's fun there because you get involved with a lot of things outside of the banking industry. I think that's value.

Allan:  Jim, we really appreciate. It's been great, very insightful and we really appreciate you sharing some time with us today. Martha and I both really enjoyed the discussion and we wish you all the best as we wrap things up. We wish you continued success at First Midwest.

Jim:  Allan and Martha, thank you so much. It was great talking with you and much success to both of you as well.

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Allan:  Martha, I think the podcast went really well and I think it was great when you mentioned the tips in the beginning because I think Jim really hit the nail on the head with all of those. One being data driven organic growth. There's a lot of great information there. He also talked about performance-based marketing, and also the digital transformation that's really kind of affecting everybody, especially these days.

Martha:  I agree and I really admire Jim's positive attitude in the face of challenges. In fact, some of what he said about addressing budget constraints really echoes what we heard from Kevin Mackiewicz in a previous episode, where he talked about limited budgets teaching you to optimize.

Allan:  You are right. And for the record I've never been to Wrigley, so we'll have to put that on our list.

Martha:  Yeah, I'd love to get out there.

Allan:  One of these days.

Martha:  One of these days.

Allan:  Thanks to our listeners for joining us. We really appreciate it. You can check out more episodes in the show notes at vyasystems.com. Vya systems is V-Y-A systems with an S dot com or you can listen wherever you listen to podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. And if you have ideas for topics or questions you'd like us to cover in the future just email us at marketing@vyasystems.com. Thank you so much.

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Please note:  Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.


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